Lower Middle Market Buyouts and the Art of Investor Communications with Sequoya Borgman & Marit Harm

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Hey, good day everybody. Welcome to The Investor Relations Podcast. I guess the mission is within the name, investor relations. It's relationships with investors, and what we do is we have conversations from family office, institutional investors, all the way throughout the spectrum, and even companies that work hand-in-hand with them. One of our, uh, one of our joys is having conversations with people who have done it and then come back and kinda share their successes. And we're gonna share the story today of a group that kinda started with SPVs and individual deals, starting with about 28 investors, and have scaled it to well over that number, and we'll get into the specifics on the show. So with that, Sequoya and Marit, welcome to The Investor Relations Podcast. Yeah, thanks for having us. Thanks, Josh. Yeah. All right. So if you're listening in, you might watch some clips on YouTube, but if you're listening in, you're gonna hear a few different voices. We're gonna start with Sequoya. Sequoya, uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what is it that you do? Yeah, yeah. Well, besides have a lot of fun, uh, look at, looking at cool, uh, investment opportunities, uh, yeah, that I founded the firm about 10 years ago. Um, we're a low- lower middle market leverage buyout shop. And, um, prior to founding the firm, I'd spent about 20 years in public accounting, so I'm a CPA by training, worked at some big four firms and really focused on private equity transactions, M&A. Um, and then since launching the firm, we've, uh, we've fortunately acquired 20-some businesses over that period and really, um, really grown the team. Now we've got offices around the country. We've bought companies from East Coast to the West Coast, and, um, we've got 15 people on the team, including, um, including Marit who, who leads our investor relations, um, part of the business. Yeah. Super cool. So Marit, shout out to you. Uh, you're coming on. You and I originally spoke, um, a couple weeks ago, and, uh, we were just having a, a great conversation about your background, your story, and what you have done as a part of the growth story with, with, uh, Sequoya here. C- so why don't you give an introduction to yourself, and then maybe where do you put your focus within the group? Sure. So, um, I'm here in Milwaukee at our headquarters. Originally from Minnesota, moved to Milwaukee for college, studied journalism, got into PR after that at a couple marketing firms. Then I worked at a nonprofit for six years where we did do fundraising, a little bit different, um, than what we do here at Borgman Capital. But then the opportunity came to me to join Borgman Capital essentially as the office manager and marketing manager, and I did not even know what private equity was, to be honest. Never really saw myself being in the financial services space, but, um, what sold me on the firm was the entrepreneurial spirit. It was still pretty young at the time. Um, and I was told, you know, if you do well at the firm, bring that entrepreneurial spirit, you can go pretty far, and that's definitely been the case. So when I joined the firm four years ago, investor relations was not part of my role. Um, but I think it's a testament to, um, you can succeed in this firm if you find solutions to problems, and that's exactly how I got to be in this IR role. Yeah. Super cool. So we have two voices here, ladies and gentlemen, that you're gonna be listening in. One went from CPA to LBOs, and the other went from nonprofit fundraising to, to profit, for-profit fundraising, and we're gonna kinda share the story of that evolution. So let's go back to Sequoya. Sequoya, you started out as a CPA. What made you switch from, uh, billing by hourly to a more of a, a value add business model? Like, what was that transition like for you? Yeah, I, I always was, had the entrepreneurial itch and kind of wanted to do something for myself. Um, by that point in my career, I'd been a partner for a long time and was looking for really the next step, something… Even though you're a partner at a big firm, you have 1,000 other partners, and you don't have a lot of direction, um, that, uh, that you can drive strategy and stuff like that. And I was working with private equity firms and seeing how the transactions were done. And, and at that point in the, the early, um, mid-teens, I mean, private eq- equity industry was really booming. So it was a great time to, to step out and, and, um, and make the leap. And, and, um, my, my wife at the t- thought I was, uh, crazy, but, uh, it's, it's all worked out. So look- looking back, I wish I'd done it earlier in my career, but it's been a, a fun, uh, fun 10, 10 years. Yeah. Now, when it comes to taking the leap, we hear that when, when people have gone from a more, you know, partner role or a, you know, job to something more entrepreneurial, we talk about taking the leap. And sometimes when you're taking the leap, you, you cross a, a chasm, right? And you're, you're taking a leap of faith or you're taking a jump from security and stable, you know, stability into sometimes the unknown. Now, you've worked with a bunch of private equity groups, so you kind of had a feel of what could be. But taking that step, you, you said, you said it yourself, your wife maybe thought you were a little crazy taking that leap. What made you take that leap? Like, what was it on the other side of that chasm that you said, "It's worth the risk"? What, what was going through your mind? Yeah, I knew what the upside potential was for, for private equity. And at that point, I mean, spending 20 years in public accounting, I already had a pretty cushy lifestyle and, and, um, was fortunate to save enough, um, personal savings in order to, to take that leap. I know not everybody's in that situation. But I was able to fund, um, my lifestyle for, for a long period of time as we got the firm up and running and got the first couple transactions done, um, before really any, any cash flow started, um, being generated. And actually, before I took the leap, I had a company under LOI that I was planning on purchasing as a first deal, um, and stepping away and starting the firm. And that, that first deal ended up falling apart. So not, not all of them are certain. So at that point, I, I didn't have much of a backup plan, so I just had to, had to go out and make it, make it happen and, and was fortunate to find another nice company to buy, um, probably six months after that or so. But really, when something like that happens, it's, it's a, a punch in the gut and, and you really have to kind of reevaluate your options. And, and fortunate, being a professional, um, in public accounting, I… That was, was really my fallback. I could always go back and go in- into a, a role. So e- even people that make that leap, I mean, you still have that- That fallback opportunity for, for most, most successful, um, professionals. Yeah. So the punch in the gut, sorry to bring it up, but let's go there for a second. When it comes to you took the leap, you had the savings account, you're doing good, you had the family, you, you had your first company under LOI. You're moving along. Now, for people who don't know the business model PE, so we can walk through that a little bit. But you, you got to a point where it started falling apart, and you were starting to look at, like, maybe your savings account going down, down, down, down, down, no money coming in. And as a CPA, you knew your numbers pretty well, my assumption is. Talk to me about that punch in the gut and what keeps someone going when they're afraid, when they're scared, when they're… the… it's uncertain, and then you see that decreasing, the fear of loss, fear of aver- you know, all of those things happening. Like, what's going on in your brain, and what keeps you going? Yeah, I mean, that, that, the- we… Every year probably something falls apart that we, we, um, we're really, um, hoping would get over the finish line, and that is, it's a punch in the gut. I mean, you have to go home and tell your spouse that day that something that you've really wor- been working hard for, really counting on is not gonna happen. But you've gotta m- move, move on, um, wake up the next day, and, um, put one step in front of the other and, and, um, and, and make it happen. I mean, I always tell the team it's really not the effort you put in, it's really the results. So you, you gotta make sure that those results come through and, and fortunately in this business, um, there's, um, lot, lots of opportunities out there, lots of entrepreneurs with nice, nice businesses, and you just have to find the next opportunity. Cool. We're gonna come back to you, Sequoya,'cause we're gonna talk about the business model, right, your, how you guys function, and then maybe your, your buy box in the future. But let, let's go to, um, Marit 'cause you went from non-profit to for-profit. Is there similarities when it comes to fundraising and raising capital, investor relations that you found was helpful kind of coming from that background of non-profit? Definitely. So my, my nonprofit was kind of unique in that it was a membership organization of high-powered women executives in Milwaukee. So assuming a lot of them are high net worth individuals, the communication style and the way I interacted with those women is very similar to what I now do with our investor group at Borgman Capital. Um, there's just ways that you engage with someone at, at that level, that position. There's expectations that they have. Um, and I think something I became very good at at my previous role was just remembering names, remembering people, remembering little facts about them, and that's so useful when we've now got 500 different investors. And there's definitely nuances with some of them that it's helpful to remember. Yeah. Um, you know, this family office likes things done this way, or this individual likes things done that way. Um, somehow I've just got a good memory, good knack for that. Yeah. Well, that is definitely a skill set. People is a… Uh, people skills are, uh, you know, what I've found in investor relations is so very vital. You know, it's important to have the, the numbers, the, the systems, the processes, the, all that structure. But having a EQ, the emotional quotient, being able to read people and, and understand maybe what makes them tick is, I think is a super valuable thing. Give us one thing that you've learned, uh, you know, going from 28, you know, retail investors kind of to, to 500. What's one thing, if you could look back and, you know, if you could go back in time and be like, all right, you're about to step into a role. It's gonna go from 28 people to managing, you know, over communications to 500 people, 'cause that's a part of your all's, you know, mandate, which we'll kind of go into too. What's one thing that you learned that you wish you could go back and kind of prep yourself for? That's a great question. So when I came on board four years ago, I'd say we were probably at about 200 investors. Mm-hmm. And the reason I got woven into this investor relations is I was asked to figure out a new CRM or investor platform. Like, let's look at the options and see what we could implement. Um, turns out there's a lot of different companies out there selling their platforms. Um, and it was probably about a year process of exploring what was out there, figuring out what we needed, discussing internally, getting buy-in to finally implementing the platform. And the reason I am now the leader of investor relations is because once we implemented the platform, it was like, "Oh, Marit is the one that knows how to use this." Yeah. Um, so it just kind of evolved from there. Um, I think looking back, what I wish I had known, um- I think it goes back to communication in my previous jobs of just know your audience. Um, I think over time from that 28 to now 500, we've been able to segment more into the institutional type investors, family office. There's some who invest through their IRA, so being clear about the different communications that are needed for those different types. Yeah. Cool. Thanks for sharing. Sequoya, back to you, my friend. As we're, as we're kind of talking through, you know, the, the business model and, and exploring that, one of the things, the, that your group and private equity groups is you're on one side, you're, you're raising capital, on the other side, deploying capital. So investor relations is such a vital part of the, the business model. Kind of give us an overview of, of your business model and how you do it, and then maybe what's a, what's your focus with deploying and allocation? Yeah. Um, so our original plan was, like most traditional lower middle market f-funds, was to do a couple deals and raise a fund and, um, kind of buy, buy companies. A-again, our box is, um, kind of mostly family businesses, lower middle market businesses, businesses under two hundred million in revenue, twenty million of EBITDA, those types of nice generational businesses. And, um, but after… So the first deal, like, like we said, we had twenty-eight investors on that, and that was really just everybody I know. I, I asked them to, to invest in that, that company, and, and a few people, um, really stepped up and helped us with that first transaction. And an investment banker friend I, I had said, said, "What, what are you gonna do? Just pass, pass the hat to get this done?" And, and I said, um, "So I gu- I guess that's what we're, we're gonna do." And it, it worked out. I think, um, I had to ask a lot more than twenty-eight to get twenty-eight to commit, but we raised the capital for that deal. And then we, we lined up another deal right after that, and we needed a lot more equity for that second deal, so we had even more investors in that one. I think we had about eighty-five investors. And at that point, we, we saw that there was the investor appetite. Um, we found another deal right, um, soon after that, and instead of raise the traditional fund, take, take twelve or eighteen months to raise a fund, we already had the, the interest from our investor group. We decided to just keep doing the deals deal by deal. At the point of that time, it was called the independent sponsor model. So we've kind of pivoted. So rather than, um, than raise a fund, we, we, um, we'd started just raising the capital, a Reg D filing for each separate platform, and twenty-some platforms later, that, that's models really worked out, and we used that, uh, that quote from that investment banker friend to really, um, um, name our, um, our investor platform. It's called PassTheHat.com. And, uh, and that's where it came from. I think he, he, he said it kind of glib, but, uh, we took it to heart, and it's, it's worked out. And from 20, 20-some investors to over 500 at this point, it's really, um, been a nice model. And the last two deals we've, we've done here in the last couple months, I mean, we were three times oversubscribed and two times oversubscribed in those two deals, and it really shows the, the interest for retail and, um, small institutional and family office in- investors wanting access to these direct, um, lower middle market deals. There's not a lot of other options. If you look at real estate or venture or angel, there's lots of platforms for those. But, um, for what we're doing, kind of leveraged buyout model, there's very few firms that have a, a, a, um, structure like ours. So we, we, we just have some great, great investors that support us over, over the years. Yeah. So we're, we're talking about the value proposition of why should an investor invest alongside you rather than anyone else or not at all, right? And you kind of shared that. You know, there's a lot that, you know, you could get in with, you know, a large real estate deal or, you know, a public company or this or that, right? But, like, when you found lower middle market carve-out niche and they can invest alongside, you know, other people in these things as a, as a Reg D filing, like, you, you, you found that as a, a strong proposition to people because they wanted to be part of a direct deal, to the point where they were three times oversubscribed. So the… Let me flip the value proposition question over and say, okay, now we have money in the bank and we're ready to go buy a company. Now you're talking to, let's just say I'm a lower middle market firm, family business. I've got 20 million in EBITDA, right? And you're coming to me to, to po- potentially buy. What's your value proposition to me? Why should I sell to you, Mr. Private Equity or Mr. This or That rather than any other groups or just keep it or give it to someone else or do an ESOP? Like, why should I sell to you? That's a good question. I mean, our model is much more flexible. We don't have a fund mandate where you can only deploy a certain amount of equity in a deal. You, you can only go after a certain type of industry or a certain geography, or you need a investment committee approval, or your LPs need to approve the transaction. We can be much more flexible, move quicker, and really work around mo- most of the businesses we're buying are, are family businesses or founder businesses, so we can work around what they really see their succession plan being and, and what's best for that business and for their employees and their community. And also with our kind of the special purpose vehicles that we set up, they're, they're kind of like a continuation fund or a, a greenfield kind of long-term. We can hold these businesses a lot longer. So some sellers don't want to sell to somebody that's going to flip that business in three years or five years and really disrupt their employees and, and put that type of stress on the business.'Cause most of them, they've held their business 40 years, 30 years, and seeing something where they're going to sell it and see it resold in, in three years or five years is just not something that they're interested in. And yeah, there's lots of competitions they can sell to an ESOP, but an ESOP, um, they're going to have to finance that transaction themselves. There's a lot more risk for the… They're not taking mu- much chips off the table in that situation, and they still have to be very involved with that business, where we, we would give them, um, a different, um, option. And a lot of times the business owners do sit on the board and stay involved with those businesses long-term with us or roll over a, a big chunk of capital. Um, so we… Again, we can just be very flexible around what, what the owner really wants to do with that business. Got it. Yes. So part of the value proposition, let me make sure I heard this correctly and for the people listening in, is, you know, some private equity model might be a buy and flip. You know, three, five, seven-year horizon. We buy the company, we, we add systems, processes, we put it as a part of a platform, we bundle it up, and we sell it to the, the next group. What you're… What I heard you say is you have a longer term, you know, hold box if you want, right? Like there's… I think I read on the website that legacy preservation is important to you and the owners, so you have the ability and the flexibility to do that a- as a part of the, the deal. What made you think that that's important, and, and what, what kind of, uh, receivership has that been from the, the sellers? I mean, a lot of the businesses we look at have been around 100 years. They're third, third generation businesses. Yeah. And if you look at in, in any three-year period in that, uh, lifestyle, that business, there wasn't a lot of value created. Mm-hmm. It takes a long time, and it's very hard to find these really nice, profitable businesses, um, that are established, and w- why would you wanna sell those? Those families, they sell them on- once a generation maybe. You have to be in the right place at the right time. So from our standpoint, if you own a really nice business, um, if you sell it, you have to redeploy that capital into another business and, and you… If you already know you're invested in a really nice business, you'd, you'd rather keep your capital there. I mean, it's no, no different than investing in the public markets. I mean, really nice companies, you wanna keep that capital invested for, uh, long periods of time. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to, to sell, um, in a three or five-year period if you have a really nice business. Got it. And when it comes to the, you know, either liquidity, like if an investor needs liquidity, or, you know, distributions or, you know, the IPO or the n- you know, next gen exit, like, what kind of things have you seen investors want at different levels, retail versus family versus institution? Yeah, I mean, if, if investors want liquidity early, I mean, we, we do recaps. We, we buy out, uh, investor portions. Um, I mean, there's, there's a lot of… With our model, again, we can be very flexible. Um, we can pay distributions. Um, there are some tax benefits for any business we buy that's under seventy-five million and you hold for five years, you, you don't pay capital gains, um, under Section 1202, which is very beneficial for me. Me personally, I, I like keeping my capital tied up for five years and, um, so for some of the smaller deals, that's, that's very attractive for us and, and most of the investors that, that invest with us. And again, family offices invest for the long term. I mean, most real estate investments are long-term investments, um, and most family office wealth is generated from a business that's been around for generations. So that's very aligned with our investment philosophy and really how real value is created in the long term. Yeah, that's cool, man. Marit, to you now. When it comes to communications, you've learned this from the nonprofit world of sharing mission, vision, value, and, and with the nonprofit world, you're working towards kind of a mission. In the for-profit investor relations, you're working towards a, a mission and-- but the mission might be a little different or portrayed different. It's what, what is the purpose of your capital? Like, what is the direction? You know, what's your affinity towards it or what is your alignment towards it? How have you found, uh, the communications are maybe aligned and maybe what have you found that you needed to tweak a lot harder than maybe initially expected when dealing with different levels of investor? Yeah, well, we mentioned our, um, our platform Pass the Hat, and I probably still have the email soon after I started Sequoya sent me. You know, "I've got this idea for an investor sourcing site, Pass the Hat. Go buy the domain and create it." Yeah. Um, talk about entrepreneurial environment. Um- Love it … but really that was my direction. Of course, I, I checked in with him on questions and such, but it was really creating the whole thing from buying the domain, I think Amazon owned it at the time, um, working with a web developer, doing this on a shoestring budget as well, creating the content, working with legal to make sure the messaging was compliant. And then there was definitely a change management component too with both our team internally, who was used to raising capital with investors one way, and our current investors, um, who were maybe used to being part of a, a special club and wondering why we're opening up our investor network, um, to the United States. So, um, I think for communication on Pass the Hat, it's really what is the reason you might look to alternatives, um, never telling someone they should or should not, but laying out, um, here's why you might consider investing in alternatives. Um, a lot of questions about how does it work. Um, we do have a process, and there's multiple steps once you do decide that you're interested. So, um, yeah, the communication is so important, especially when you are trying to attract someone that doesn't necessarily already know who Borgman Capital is. That's the challenge, is getting them to trust Borgman Capital and then pique their interest to invest with us. And I would say it, it usually takes a couple of times. They wanna see a few different deals before they invest, but we are starting to see Pass the Hat become a success. If you would plot our investors on a map of the United States when Sequoya started out, they're, they're pretty much all concentrated in Milwaukee and Wisconsin. Now we've got a ton in Florida, coast to coast, um, Minnesota, Illinois. So it's really cool to see that the concept and that idea from the email he sent me early on is starting to come to fruition. Yeah. Super cool. Taking, you know, being the catalyst, being the activator to take from Sequoya's idea and integrating it and turning it into something is a, is definitely a skill set that, um, I think a lot of people lack. So, uh, kudos to you. And, you know, for you, Sequoya, for finding and hiring and, and delivering that kind of, um, mandate for her to, to go for it. Um, let's talk about alternatives when it comes to investor relations for family offices, right? How do you… You know, what are some things that you've learned, Sequoya, from, from doing, you know, pass the hat kind of conversations with maybe some larger groups where they're not just a, you know, country club, you know, member, but they're, you know, an established family office where, you know, allocation is important to them and, you know, kind of figuring out where alternatives fit within their allocation. What, what have you found useful when communicating to them? Yeah, I mean, our, really our brand from the beginning is to over-communicate. I, I invest with some other groups, I'm sure you do as well, and sometimes you, you make an investment and you never hear how that investment's doing till you get your K-1 at the end of the year and, and may- maybe you hear some… So we, we do a lot of, um, upfront communications. Um, we do quarterly communications, quarterly newsletters, quarterly updates on how the companies are doing, quarterly financials. Um, and then we do a y- year-end, and we have a annual investor event where we bring all the larger investors, and really all the investors to a, to a, a summit and, and kind of walk through how the investments are doing, what's the strategy, what's the value creation plan. Um, let them meet the presidents, hear, hear from them, um, how their thoughts on the business, and really over-communicate. I feel like that's really what I like to see personal as an investor when I invest with other groups. And, um, so that's really been our brand. And, and Marit is… I mean, she gets all, all the credit for, for really that part of the business. But when we do have a deal, I mean, we send it out to our investor group and those who've registered to see deals, and then we give them all, all the access to the data room, all the diligence that we're doing. They have full access as, as, um, the family offices really enjoy doing. They do… I mean, the professional family offices these days are as professional as any, um, LP out there, um, institutional LP, and they'll do a deep dive. We do a webcast where we walk through the investment thesis with all of our investors. Um, we give them, uh, uh… Any questions asked through that process, we do a, a Q&A and send it out to everybody. And really, again, it's just all about communication, as you said earlier. We, we try and over-communicate. I'm available at any time if investor wants to call me personally. I enjoy those, those questions. And a lot of, um, the good ideas we have for these investments and a lot of the relationships and networks that we have is through our investor network. Um, and they send us- Mm … a lot of the investment opportunities as well. They might hear of a, a business, uh, owner wanting to sell, and they'll, they'll make an introduction. So really, that, that whole communication and investor network is, is half of the, the value of what we've built Yeah. That is so true. We work with, you know, a decent size, uh, family office community, and a lot of times, like, if you're communicating with them and they go, "Hey, this isn't a fit for me," and the, the importance I think of having conversations with, with people, like actually pick up the phone and calling someone, if they go,"Hey, it's not a fit for me, but let me, let me introduce you to my friend over here who does exactly that, and that's more in their, their, their wheelhouse. So why don't you chat with them? Here's an email introduction," or whatever. And I think that, I think that people have… And this is why I created The Investor Relations Podcast. I think that people are losing, especially because they're so used to having ChatGPT create their communications or sending out a text message, but I think few people are actually having relationships with investors. So that, that summit sounds awesome. What do you do at that summit in terms of, like, outside of just, like, presentation and stuff like that? Is there something that you guys do that has become a tradition or has become, you know, maybe, uh, something that you look forward to, like, outside of, you know, presentation, investor relations, and stuff like that? Well, at, at this point, it's so mu- so much work, so I look forward to it, uh, the end, end of the summit. But no, it, it i- is great. We have a, a, a, a dinner, a get together the night before, and then during, during the summit, I mean, it's good to see all our investors. Um, they come into town for it. We, we host it here at the Harley Museum in, in Milwaukee, and, and really- Oh, cool um, it's, it's a great event, and we walk through, again, all, all the investments. We have the investors, um, present. And, and we've tried different formats. I mean, of course, uh, everybody strives to be kind of like a, a Buffett, um, Berkshire type event. But, um, but we do our best and, and really get great feedback. And again, it's a l- heavy lift for Marit and the team to put it on every year, but I think it's one of the best, best things we do. Um, we have a couple other events, um, that are more, uh, kind of networking for our investors, but that's really the big one during, during the year. And you're, you're right. Yeah. Uh, most of our family offices, we've, we've, um, met because another family office introduced us to them. It, it is very… It's such a small investor community around the country. You see a lot of the same people at, when you go to conferences and, and events. But, um, if you, if one in- family office, um, uh, enjoys working with you and, and is getting good returns, they, they introduce you to, to a dozen other, and it just grows from that. It's very organic. Yeah. And I think the same is true for high net worth individuals. If they invest with us, have a good experience, they will refer their friends, their colleagues. Yeah. So it's grown that way as well. Yeah. There's a, um… I'm trying to remember who it's attributed to. I don't remember, so forgive me. There's, uh, something called the PIRATE metrics, A-A-R-R-R. It's acquisition, activation, referral, retention, and revenue or something like that. And it's essentially this. It's referrals, the cost of acquisition, right? Like we're all studying, you know, investor relations. We study the cost of capital, the cost of acquiring capital. But referrals are such a untapped Like method of asking like, "Hey, who do you know who this might be a fit for?" And you guys seem to have done that really, really well, so kudos to you guys. Um, yeah, I think you treat people well. You communicate to them in the good times and the bad, and I'd like to ask a follow-up question for, for you, Sequoya, is how do you communicate bad news, but not quite yet, is over-communicating and, and sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly with someone builds respect and trust. And referrals are the greatest thank you that someone can do for you and your business. Um, you know, chocolate and gift baskets are awesome, but like a referral is I'm transferring trust, and I'm putting my name on your name, and I think that's, that's, that's great that people have done that for you. So Sequoya, not all deals go good. You've learned this in your first deal, jumping out of, you know, the, the CPA seat into the, the PE seat. How do you communicate… What, what's one thing you've learned on communicating through crisis or communicating, you know, um, bad news to an investor? Well, I, I think everybody knows that you, you, you can't sit on bad news. I tell all, all our presidents if anything bad goes on, I wanna know it immediately. The good stuff you can, you can, um, you can hold. But same thing, like when COVID started, I thought all the companies were going under, and we start, we started communicating with our investor group on a weekly basis. I mean, I literally sent out a weekly update, um, for almost nine months, um, that… So that quarterly update that we normally do, we, we turned it into a weekly update, just keep, keep them in the loop, all, all the kind of, um, worst case scenarios that we're running through and all… everything we're doing to address the challenge. But fortunately, all the, all the companies ended up doing pretty well that year. But at… when it first started, I thought the sky was falling and, um, we just started over-communicating. We, we told all investors, really. Yeah, I did a, a weekly email. We had a, a weekly call with all the portfolio companies and, and talked to all the presidents and shared best practices and how everybody was getting through it, and, um, fortunately, we got through that. And, and like you said, buying businesses, businesses don't all go up in a straight line. They all have challenges in the quarter, and you just have to be very upfront and honest with your, the investors on what, what the current challenges are and, and, um, and, and share the good news as well. But the, the challenges are really what, um… Like I said, the worst thing is when you make an investment and you don't hear how the company does till the end of the year, and it's really on your, uh, K-1. That's, that's, um- Yeah … that's not how you wanna hear bad news or good news. So we, we, um, we're very blunt and honest on how the companies are doing and, and it's, it's tough. I mean, run- running a business is, is probably one of the hardest things there's, there is to do out there and, and, um, and they all have had quarters or, or half a year where, where they're facing some challenges, especially the last five years. It's been, uh, really nonstop, and it's almost everybody's numb to it. It's, it's a weekly, weekly challenge at this point that you're dealing with some type of, um, external factor and, and that's just part of owning businesses. Yeah. I have fought fires, I've wrestled alligators, I've dug ditches, and running a business is by far much dif- more difficult than that. So I am with you, my friend. You are so accurate. Um- Well, you, you, you Florida guys and those alligators, I, I think I'd stay away from those myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, this is, this is great. Uh, you guys have been great guests. And uh, Marit, this was your first podcast, um, and I think you did phenomenal. Great job today. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for asking me to be on. Yeah, you're good, man. You're good. All right, I want one piece of, uh, like one resource from each of you. It could be a book, it could be a movie, it could be a, a podcast not my own. Uh, but you can share one, one recommendation for people who are looking to learn more about business or about life, or it could be something completely different that you said,"Hey, I found this resource helpful and I wanna share it with the community." So Marit, you started out. What's one, uh, resource that you found helpful to people? Oh my gosh. So I've got two young kids. My, my free time is spent with Disney songs and, uh, you know, Ms. Rachel and Danny Go. Why doesn't Sequoya go first? Yeah. So I have a minute to think. Good. Well, uh, again, thank- thanks for having us on your podcast. I, I'm a big podcast fan, so I, I'll throw out a couple that I really enjoy. I think everybody… The Acquired Podcast, I know everybody's probably found that. Mm-hmm. They had a, had a, a article in Wall Street Journal, and that thing's really taken off. I'd… If you wanna listen to a real deep dive in a business for four to six hours, I'd highly recommend, uh, the Acquired Podcast. And then just for a, a little more lighter, um, podcast, I listen to, um, the All-In Podcast, uh, on a, on a weekly basis. But really, um, big, big, um, big fan of, of podcasts, so I appreciate what you're doing. I know it's not easy, uh, putting, putting on this and, and, uh, hosting these, but um, appreciate you having us on it. Yeah. You're good. Marit, back to you. What's your favorite Disney song? What song is your kids re- really into right now? Well, this morning it was I Just Can't Wait to Be King from The Lion King. Lion King, yeah. Um, maybe fitting for, for this podcast. But- Yeah … you know, in general, a resource that I love for both personal and professional, just anything, I love TikTok. You can search anything you need an answer to, get a video. Um, you know, I just love it. For… It was… I discovered TikTok when I became a mom and I had all these questions of like, "What the heck do I do now?" And hearing from- Yeah … a mom who had been through it, you know, you, you trust them. So I think, um, TikTok can be great for any question you have or something you wanna learn. If you wanna learn about private equity or investing, obviously use your judgment on who the who's creating the video. But- Yeah … love TikTok. Love it. Now, if you do go to, uh, YouTube, ladies and gentlemen, you can, uh, search for Sequoya, and he has, like, tons, you know, him and Marit have, have, like, loaded YouTube with tons of resources and educational, so you could learn all about that by searching his name. And I'll, uh, I'll include, um, their contact information in the show notes, so if you could connect with them on LinkedIn and follow their posts and educational. They have great, uh, links and, uh, articles on their website, How to Maximize Your Business Value Before a Sale, which is interesting that a PE group is telling you how to get more value, and I just, I, I wanna honor that. So there's some good resources on their website, and if you do, uh, search for them on YouTube. Uh, ladies and gentlemen… But as always, reach out to our guest, say thanks for being on the show, follow their work, and if you have, uh, any questions, all of their information will be in the show notes. Guys, I hope you're having a great day, and we'll see you all on the next episode. Cheers, all.